The Ship of State and Watch Where You Step

Virginia Heffernan talks to Steve Vladek, a professor of law at the University of Texas, about Reality Leigh Winner and what might be the most normal national security story in the history of the Trump administration. Plus, stick around for a chat with The Guardian's Jonathan Freedland about Trump's exchange of words with the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, and why the rest of the world is treading softly around our President. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices